HUMINT: Civil Lincoln

Bush, Lincoln, and Johnson: Presidents In Wartime

Posted by humint to stainlessbanner
On News/Activism 12/22/2006 5:38:06 AM PST · 14 of 17

The islamofacist comparison [to the U.S. Civil War] is way overdone and has been thoroughly vetted on other threads. Try another approach. [Lincoln's emancipation of the slaves vs.] Moses, God's people, Egypt, Canaan.

On issues relating to individual liberty, the major premise is established by the federal government and the minor premise by the state. The non-interference assertion suggests sovereignty but only as long as the minor premise does not break the major premise.

  1. All citizens of the United States are free
  2. IF ONLY Some citizens of States are free
  3. Not all citizens of the United States are free

Let's look at our federal system in terms of perception. How do you refer to yourself? In terms of geopolitics, are you global, national, state, county...? Federal documents have the widest relevance in terms of population cohesion. In other words, most Americans think of themselves as American first because that definition of who they are has the greatest geopolitical solidarity. You've probably noticed when reading about the history of humankind, geopolitical solidarity is proportional to power.

To your second point - comparing Lincoln to Moses outside of a spiritual context, Lincoln is indisputably more accessible. The American Civil War took place less than 150 years ago. IMO, the significance of any event is proportional to its accessibility.

  1. Rational logic is good
  2. Accessibility is required to apply logic
  3. Accessibility is good

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Bush, Lincoln, and Johnson: Presidents In Wartime

Posted by humint to billbears
On News/Activism 12/21/2006 11:29:17 PM PST · 11 of 17

BILLBEARS: [Lincoln] ignored the [Constitution] and destroyed the Republic

HUMINT: Thomas Jefferson compared slavery to holding a wolf by the ears. He knew the country would eventually let the wolf go and be bitten. He wrote extensively on the subject. Lincoln was profoundly impressed with the works of Jefferson. The Declaration of Independence did not support the Southern position once the concept of slavery had been abandoned somewhere in America. What happened when the first slave state became a free state? That meant that there was national schizophrenia over the idea of citizenry, liberty and slavery. In light of that and the prewar history I don't think slavery was a peripheral issue at all. North-South reconciliation in the post-war period cast the abolitionists as a marginal issue after the war. They rewrote history to establish some measure of normalcy but that wouldn't come for decades... The echoes of American slavery are still evident in contemporary American society. The wound will take time to heal completely, if it can heal completely.

In terms of your Constitutional argument, any State among the United States has certain characteristics. A prime, if not the most important characteristic, is to remain a state under any and all circumstances. Let's fast forward and consider your logic. Consider a majority of Muslims in Michigan were to institute Sharia law in place of the existing State Constitution. What does your interpretation of the Constitution suggest you do? All of the rights of the citizens in Michigan, guaranteed to them by the Bill of Rights, are meaningless under Sharia law. To protect the integrity of the Bill of Rights for all Americans inside and outside Michigan, the President of the United States would be obligated to protect the rights of the non-Muslim minority. What if the majority Muslims did not drop Sharia as the law of the land but instead decided to secede from our Union? I have little doubt that both you and I would stand shoulder to shoulder and go to war with Sharia Michigan.

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Bush, Lincoln, and Johnson: Presidents In Wartime

Posted by humint to billbears
On News/Activism 12/21/2006 10:28:31 PM PST · 9 of 17

[LINCOLN] a man that worked to destroy the Constitution.

The Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights were a compass guiding Lincoln's Presidency. If Lincoln sanctioned cessation as a result of Southerner's disgust of the abolitionist movement, those documents would've been meaningless and forgotten pieces of paper today. What's fascinating about Lincoln is that he served the United States as though those documents were his personal identity. I disagree with you, IMO he saved the Constitution.

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Bush, Lincoln, and Johnson: Presidents In Wartime

Posted by humint to Valin
On News/Activism 12/21/2006 9:59:59 PM PST · 7 of 17

Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln barely won the Republican nomination in 1860, barely won the presidency, suffered a near total defeat in the elections of 1862, and presided over a Civil War that claimed the lives of 600,000 men out of a population of approximately 40 million, while leaving another 2 million wounded and large swathes of the country devastated. Copperheads openly demanded peace, and as the war dragged on, millions in the north began to wonder whether the country was worth the cost in carnage. General after general disappointed him, some turned against him publicly, and one –McClellan—ran against him in 1864.

Team of Rivals is an outstanding book. Unfortunately Lincoln is still stigmatized by many Americans, IMO, unfairly. Under his leadership, arguably the most significant emancipation in the history of all mankind took place. Nevertheless, the pain of that war still sends shivers through time across generations. Irrespective of that, champions of controversial causes tend to be stained immediately after their greatest moments. Only a clear appreciation of history and the passage of enough time can wash away the blood that blurs our eyes. My consolation has always been that we, as a nation, know where we've been, know where we are and know where we're going.

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